[TP]

Still the fact is, if the songs are changed every time, you cannot get a good workout. Because if you don't know how much weight to use, and then use too light weights, it ruins your training. Also if you use too heavy weights, you can't do them properly.

It's no use for you to argue with me about this, because this is a fact.

And if you say that "it's what your participants want", it's most propably not true. It might be what some participants want, but definitely NOT all of them. And usually those participants are the loudest ones. You need to think about the majority.

[Bron Gondwana]

TP, on Nov 14 2008, 10:53 AM, said:

Still the fact is, if the songs are changed every time, you cannot get a good workout. Because if you don't know how much weight to use, and then use too light weights, it ruins your training. Also if you use too heavy weights, you can't do them properly.

It's no use for you to argue with me about this, because this is a fact.

And if you say that "it's what your participants want", it's most propably not true. It might be what some participants want, but definitely NOT all of them. And usually those participants are the loudest ones. You need to think about the majority.

One of the instructor I'm still participating in classes with does three weeks of each mix - and in the third week he really pushes the pace and pushes people to build up their weights over that period as they get familiar with the tracks. It works well, but I suspect if I was participating in more than two classes per week with that mix, I'd be pretty bored of it by the end!

That said, I still love Pump 67, and I've done a LOT of it! Some mixes just work really well.

[Special]

TP, on Nov 14 2008, 10:53 AM, said:

Still the fact is, if the songs are changed every time, you cannot get a good workout. Because if you don't know how much weight to use

Isn't it the instructors job to advise about weight selection?

Are you seriously saying that when you do a new release for the first time you don't get a good workout? Because I think that is crap.
I am pretty sure everyone on this tread has agreed that you need a balance of some known stuff so you know exactly how to push yourself and it is familiar, and some new stuff for variety of exercise, lack of boredom etc.
Your the only one still going on about it, insisting that you know everything and everyone else is wrong. It seems to be your style.

[Bron Gondwana]

I think what TP might be saying is that his participants don't trust him enough to follow the weight selection advice until they've tried it for themselves a couple of times...

[TP]

Special, on Nov 14 2008, 03:38 AM, said:

Isn't it the instructors job to advise about weight selection?

Are you seriously saying that when you do a new release for the first time you don't get a good workout? Because I think that is crap.

That's not correct. Every participant is an individual. Instructor can only give some advice whether to increase or decrease the weights, but it is impossible to tell every individual in class how much to use. They need to do the tracks once or twice so they can select optimal weights for each excercise.

Special, on Nov 14 2008, 03:38 AM, said:

I am pretty sure everyone on this tread has agreed that you need a balance of some known stuff so you know exactly how to push yourself and it is familiar, and some new stuff for variety of exercise, lack of boredom etc.
Your the only one still going on about it, insisting that you know everything and everyone else is wrong. It seems to be your style.

Well, it's not my fault if someone here is ignorant. You are just denying the facts here.

Bron Gondwana, on Nov 14 2008, 04:44 AM, said:

I think what TP might be saying is that his participants don't trust him enough to follow the weight selection advice until they've tried it for themselves a couple of times...

That's not what I'm saying, not at all. There is no such instructor who could give every participant the EXACT weights what to use. For example in quarterlies, when we instructors do the tracks for the first time, we don't know how much is optimal for each track. If the trainer advices us to decrease weight, we still can't know whether to decrease 2 kilos or 5 kilos. But when I do the tracks once, then I know if I need to decrease or increase the weights next time.

Anyone here who claims that doing different excercise every time gives a proper workout doesn't understand anything about training your muscles.

[Bron Gondwana]

TP, on Nov 19 2008, 07:04 AM, said:

That's not what I'm saying, not at all. There is no such instructor who could give every participant the EXACT weights what to use. For example in quarterlies, when we instructors do the tracks for the first time, we don't know how much is optimal for each track. If the trainer advices us to decrease weight, we still can't know whether to decrease 2 kilos or 5 kilos. But when I do the tracks once, then I know if I need to decrease or increase the weights next time.

Anyone here who claims that doing different excercise every time gives a proper workout doesn't understand anything about training your muscles.

Funny, the smallest sized weight increments available at some of the gyms I use are 1.25kg, so it's hard to get _exactly_ the optimal weight for me over time anyway.

Besides - I have "heavy days" and "light days", sometimes even just for some tracks. For example I don't tend to do any gym time on Sunday, so I go extra hard on Saturday. I did even before I started teaching. Also, sometimes my triceps will be already pretty caned, so I'll go back to my warmup weight on the bar, while other times I'll be feeling tough and throw and extra 5kg on the bar to really push myself. It depends not only on the track, but what else has been happening in my life.

So - if I trust the instructor and they give me advice about weight, I'll have a good idea of the range from which to make my decision.

(by taking your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd NEVER change the program)

[TP]

Bron Gondwana, on Nov 19 2008, 08:00 AM, said:

Funny, the smallest sized weight increments available at some of the gyms I use are 1.25kg, so it's hard to get _exactly_ the optimal weight for me over time anyway.

Besides - I have "heavy days" and "light days", sometimes even just for some tracks. For example I don't tend to do any gym time on Sunday, so I go extra hard on Saturday. I did even before I started teaching. Also, sometimes my triceps will be already pretty caned, so I'll go back to my warmup weight on the bar, while other times I'll be feeling tough and throw and extra 5kg on the bar to really push myself. It depends not only on the track, but what else has been happening in my life.

So - if I trust the instructor and they give me advice about weight, I'll have a good idea of the range from which to make my decision.

(by taking your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd NEVER change the program)

Are you unable to focus to the point here? Most of what you say above is obvious, but you are still missing the point that you NEED TO KNOW the track before you can optimally choose the weights to use. For example there are some bicep tracks that I can put 20kg in the bar and still manage to finish it in good form. BUT there are also some tracks that I'm struggling with 15kg's. As you say above, you can have light days, heavy days, etc. But those are the things that you know yourself and can control them. But you cannot fully control it when you don't know what kind of training you are going to do.

Your last argument is just childish. We start with an excercise, then over time we can challenge ourselves by increasing the weights. And when our body adapts to the training, we change the choreography and start over again. If we change the choreography EVERY time, we are never challenging our muscles. If we never change the choreography, our muscles adapts to the training and the development stops or atleast slows down.

[Wendi]

I just changed a few track for the first time the other day. I have been doing 67 for a while now and incorporated an earlier release with squats, triceps, biceps and lunges. I think I will keep it like that for a few classes - depending on what the participants want. I also tend to get stale with cueing the same thing over and over. I guess I lose the exitement after I teach it so many times. So incorporating other tracks and switching it up helps me be more interesting for the class too. Im sore from the new tracks we did yesterday, haha!

[Mel]

Doobie123, on Sep 4 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

WHAT ON EARTH!!!
With a 45 min class loose the Triceps and Biceps, for aA half hour class losses those plus shoulders or Lunges and the cool down. Loosing the cool down seems your best option to meet your timeframe. NEVER loose or cut the abs track. It is the the most important one to do as a strong core is key to all other components of Pump. I don't wish to appear rude or abrupt but this is drilled in to you at module training. Don't change the format. Suggest you have a look over the hand book to refresh.

First I want to say that the cooldown should absolutely never be comprised.

I'm not sure where you got this from about the ab track but this is also unfounded. The ab track is probably THE most useless track in the class, and in fact, most of the crunches we do are not particularly effective for the majority of participants. The reason being, unless you have 6% body fat and can actually see Rectus Abdominus, which is the muscle you work during crunches, then crunches are effectively useless and in fact can do the reverse of which most people want. If working this muscle makes it bigger, then people with normal bodyweight will actually make their belly look LARGER. A better exercise of course is more pilates type abdominal exercises, which bodypump has begun including more of, but probably not necessary either.

I will explain why in a sec.

First, why do Les Mills still put in crunches? Because that's what the market want..........or at least that's what people think they need. Of course I'm not a mind reader and I haven't actually confirmed what's going through their minds when they're choreographing, but this is my intrepretation of the group fitness industry as I see it so far. People want crunches because they've been brainwashed into thinking it will give them a toned flat stomach. All those commercials for ab blasters, ab crunches, ab killers, toned abs in 5 mins while sitting watching TV, vibrating ab thingys.............as a Personal Trainer I always found I was endlessly coaching people that doing crunches ISN'T going to give them a washboard stomach. If LM took crunches out of pump there would be endless complaints!

Secondly, why aren't core exercises essential at the end of pump? Yes it is true that these are vital for becoming stronger in lifting weights, BUT.........you use these muscles heavily while actually do the weights themselves. If you're engaging the core muscles correctly during the class, these muscles SHOULD be smashed by the time you get to the ab track. If those muscles aren't quivering in the ab track already then something isn't right.

It is definately important to do core exercises, but in this scenario at the end of the pump class the ab track is not as vital as you make it seem. I would rather see an entire ab track cut out (if that was necessary) than see the cooldown cut short. Unfortunately participants rarely agree and would complain if the ab track was cut, and will happily walk out of the cooldown.

It's a tough life sometimes educating participants the importance of some of these things....

[Special]

The cooldown is left out in the official format for a 30 minute class.

I think people gave Bron Gondwana a hard time over not much. He was stuck in a yuck situation, and as he was the shadow, he got no real say in what went on anyway.
He wasn't advocating doing it each week. The class started late, people needed to leave, the instructor tried to give them what they came for.
Chill people, chill.

[Bron Gondwana]

Special, on Dec 13 2008, 08:24 PM, said:

The cooldown is left out in the official format for a 30 minute class.

I think people gave Bron Gondwana a hard time over not much. He was stuck in a yuck situation, and as he was the shadow, he got no real say in what went on anyway.
He wasn't advocating doing it each week. The class started late, people needed to leave, the instructor tried to give them what they came for.
Chill people, chill.

Thanks Special

Now that I'm teaching my own classes, I wouldn't do that of course! I have cut the cooldown short a couple of times when we've started late - have to be fair to both the next instructor and the people who need to get somewhere else on time. Always tell people to do more stretches on their own time though!

Besides, the 30 minute format is now: 1,2,3,4,9. They took out the Lunges/Shoulders because it's impossible to really fit it in 30 minutes otherwise.

[Doobie123]

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

First I want to say that the cooldown should absolutely never be comprised.

Simply not true - refer to the 30 minute format.

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

The ab track is probably THE most useless track in the class

As I said, it's drilled in as the single most important track at module training - take your argument to the national instructors but I'm with them.

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

and in fact, most of the crunches we do are not particularly effective for the majority of participants. The reason being,..... blah blah blah

I'm not disputing what you said above, it's just nothing to do with why I (and the trainers) advocate track 9 in Pump.

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

First, why do Les Mills still put in crunches? Because that's what the market want..........or at least that's what people think they need. Of course I'm not a mind reader and I haven't actually confirmed what's going through their minds when they're choreographing, but this is my intrepretation of the group fitness industry as I see it so far. People want crunches because they've been brainwashed into thinking it will give them a toned flat stomach. All those commercials for ab blasters, ab crunches, ab killers, toned abs in 5 mins while sitting watching TV, vibrating ab thingys.............as a Personal Trainer I always found I was endlessly coaching people that doing crunches ISN'T going to give them a washboard stomach. If LM took crunches out of pump there would be endless complaints!

Not in my experience, but we are all entitled to opinion.
I believe that participants are far more educated with respect to fitness than you are giving them credit for.

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

Secondly, why aren't core exercises essential at the end of pump? Yes it is true that these are vital for becoming stronger in lifting weights, BUT.........you use these muscles heavily while actually do the weights themselves. If you're engaging the core muscles correctly during the class, these muscles SHOULD be smashed by the time you get to the ab track. If those muscles aren't quivering in the ab track already then something isn't right.

It is definately important to do core exercises, but in this scenario at the end of the pump class the ab track is not as vital as you make it seem.

Are you talking yourself in to the benefits of the ab track here? And I don't think I said it was "Vital" - I said it was drilled in at module training that it is the one track that is never missed out. There is a difference.

Mel, on Dec 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

I would rather see an entire ab track cut out (if that was necessary) than see the cooldown cut short. Unfortunately participants rarely agree and would complain if the ab track was cut, and will happily walk out of the cooldown.

It's a tough life sometimes educating participants the importance of some of these things....

Please feel fee to educate the experts at LM. It's the format they prescribe and the format that I have agreed to teach. LM instructors are educated not to change format, just as they should not change the chorey, it's one of LM's basic "rules".
I think if you don't agree with that, have a look at Group Power

[Mel]

Doobie123, on Dec 16 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

Simply not true - refer to the 30 minute format.

This I have wondered about and to be honest I haven't looked at the education session on this due to the fact I'm not teaching at the moment (since having my baby and moving to the Netherlands).

I think the important point to note though is that we weren't talking about the 30 min format. In the 30 min format you do a much much reduced amount of exercise. I think just because they drop the cooldown from this format doesn't necessarily mean that the cooldown has less importance than in the 1 hour format. I guess it makes sense..........less exercise, less stretching required. Also, from the very short workout I can see that the abdominals would get less of a workout.

However we were talking about the 1 hour format, so let's stick to talking about the 1 hour format. Consider 30 min and 1 hour formats to be entirely different programs.

Quote

Not in my experience, but we are all entitled to opinion.
I believe that participants are far more educated with respect to fitness than you are giving them credit for.

I am going on personal experience, I'm hardly making this up. Participants wouldn't know their rectus abdominus from their rectum. Maybe your participants are educated on the latest research on exercise..........but I can vouche for the fact that I have rarely seen them. Otherwise I wouldn't have had a job as a PT.

Quote

Are you talking yourself in to the benefits of the ab track here? And I don't think I said it was "Vital" - I said it was drilled in at module training that it is the one track that is never missed out. There is a difference.

ok I think i may understand what's going on here. I understand that it was drilled in at your training, but I have a theory of why this may be happening. Many instructors who are "running late", "lazy", "lack passion" - or whatever description you may have for a poor instructor - have a tendancy to drop the ab track. You don't see many people drop the squat track, or the back track? I suspect that your trainer may have emphased that track just because lots of instructors drop it, not because it's the most important track.

Quote

Please feel fee to educate the experts at LM. It's the format they prescribe and the format that I have agreed to teach. LM instructors are educated not to change format, just as they should not change the chorey, it's one of LM's basic "rules".

No the formula LM prescribe is the full 1 hour format...........we were merely talking about which track to drop if you're running late. In theory you shouldn't drop ANY tracks........and that is the format I aim to follow. There is no educating of the choreographers of LM required (nor do I presume to be knowledgable enough to do so) since they don't recommend you drop ANY tracks in the 1 hour format.

I was merely explaining from a PT physiological view that your statement that the abdominals is the most important track is simply not correct. One of my favourite quotes has always been "Bodypump is also a 55 min ab workout" and I think you'll find plenty of instructors and trainers that support this.

If you must cut out a track for some extreme reason (in the 1 hour format) then it should never be the cooldown.

Likewise you should never cut out a track for any reason anyway, and I think THAT is what your trainers would have said if this question came up.

[Bron Gondwana]

Mel, on Dec 17 2008, 02:16 AM, said:

No the formula LM prescribe is the full 1 hour format...........we were merely talking about which track to drop if you're running late. In theory you shouldn't drop ANY tracks........and that is the format I aim to follow. There is no educating of the choreographers of LM required (nor do I presume to be knowledgable enough to do so) since they don't recommend you drop ANY tracks in the 1 hour format.

I was merely explaining from a PT physiological view that your statement that the abdominals is the most important track is simply not correct. One of my favourite quotes has always been "Bodypump is also a 55 min ab workout" and I think you'll find plenty of instructors and trainers that support this.

If you must cut out a track for some extreme reason (in the 1 hour format) then it should never be the cooldown.

I've been thinking a fair bit about how I would handle this if I was called at the last minute and couldn't make the timeslot - or if the instructor before ran more than 10 minutes over (I think that's a reasonable point to start altering your format so your participants can make later commitments, and the following classes can get back on schedule)

I think at the 10 minutes late mark I'd suggest we go the 45 minute format to the class - emphasise the advantages of having a proper cooldown and not having to rush transitions crazily. Plus leaving on time.

It's actually really nice having official options right down to 30 minutes worth that can be swapped in if time gets really messed up for some reason. Better than just plowing through until the next instructor gets management to physically drag you off stage!

[biggayal1980]

gee folks, lighten up!